In this episode, I interview Elaine and Trenise from Goodwill of North Georgia. In this episode we talk about:
- What to do when a website is in decline
- Email Marketing
- A/B Testing – how to do it and why
- Website analytics
- Heatmap testing
- Social Media best practices
Transcript from this episode:
Hi, and welcome to the Good People Good Marketing Podcast. A Podcast about digital marketing and how to make it better so that good people at good organizations can have good marketing as well. I am your host, Adam Walker, co-founder of Sideways8, a digital marketing agency and Forty-Eight & Forty-Eight, a non-profit dedicated to hosting events and building forty-eight websites for forty-eight nonprofits in forty-eight hours.
In this episode, I talk with Elaine and Trenise from Goodwill of north Georgia. We discuss what to do when a website is in decline, email marketing and how you might consider going about some AB testing to improve your engagement. Website analytics, heatmap testing, and social media. Make sure you stay tuned and hear a really fantastic interview.
Adam: Hi and welcome to the podcast. I’m here today at Goodwill North Georgia with Elaine and Trenise. Ladies, please introduce yourselves.
Elaine: Hi everyone. I’m Elaine Armstrong vice president of marketing for Goodwill of North Georgia. I’ve been at Goodwill for 11 years so definitely I drank kool aid early on, but no I love my job here. For many years I was over PR and communications, so I started here as PR manager, moved to Director of Public Relations and recently, I guess almost two years now, a year and a half I got promoted to vice president of marketing. I’ve got a great team here. We’re doing some awesome work. And so, I’m just glad to be on the Podcast.
Adam: We’re going to know more about that work!
Elaine: Yes, absolutely!
Trenise: Hey everyone! I’m Trenise Lyons the marketing manager here at Goodwill North Georgia. I’ve been here almost three years I think, something like that. Time goes by when you’re having a good time. Work a lot on our analytics and management and measurement here at Goodwill as well as a lot of other things which is what makes it exciting. I started out at a PR firm in D.C. and then moved finally into the nonprofit space about eight years ago, so that was exciting and glad to continue it here at Goodwill!
Adam: It’s fantastic. Well, let’s start off. Tell me a little bit about some of the projects you have, things that you’re excited about from a digital marketing perspective.
Elaine: Yes. So, one of the things that we’re really excited about this year is that we’re replatforming our website. So, it’s not a complete rebuild although we’d love to be able to do that. But in a nonprofit world, hey, look we’re a bigger nonprofit, but we still got budgets and things to worry about and really our first priority is always about our mission. So, what we wanted to do is make sure that our website was responsive and everybody could reach it because we’ve been measuring and Trenise can tell you, she looks at this data often, even every single month and even on a weekly basis sometimes about where the visitors are coming from our website. We pay attention to all of those google analytics. So, if there’s going to be a few keywords that we would do in this interview, Google Analytics is going to be one.
Elaine: Everybody. Get your Google for nonprofits account! It is gold. So, we use that extensively, but we’re looking at that. We know about half of our visitors are coming from mobile. I mean, everybody that’s doing it, so we were on a platform that doesn’t allow us to be responsive. So, we know, and we’ve been tracking it for the last year specifically looking at our website performance and our page views and how long people are staying on the page, and we’re seeing really steady declines. And so, we knew right away that we needed to do something. And of course, it’s frustrating even for us. I mean we’ve got nearly 60 stores and another 60 donation centers, and 13 career centers and even when we’re trying to look and go on our site to find addresses or give people information, it’s a pain doing it from your mobile device. So, that’s one of the things we’re working on. We are looking for companies that are going to help us do that. So, that’s one of the things that we’re going to do, and then we’ll continue to optimize and work on the website there. We’re going to do a few other page tweaks just to freshen up things, but it won’t be a complete rebuild.
Adam: Can’t resist, right?
Elaine: Yeah, we’re going to try to get a few more things in there.
Adam: I love that.
Elaine: Yeah. But in the meantime, we’ve also been working on specifically in the back end with some SEO. So, we’ve got a guy who’s been helping us clean up the pages, make sure that we don’t have duplications, making sure all of those tags and everything are as clean as possible so when we do replatform it, we’re in a better shape than we would be than if we weren’t. So, we’ve been doing that on the back end, and we constantly take a look at what those keywords are doing and how they’re performing for us so that we can make revisions along the way. It is really one of the other keys I will say is just to continue to look at these things on a regular basis. Don’t look at your SEO just one time, that’s where you were at that point in time you got to continue (5:00) to do it and enlist help. There’s a lot of great folks in Atlanta, a lot of talent around and we’re fortunate enough that we can find folks locally who can do this. Folks like yourself who know exactly what digital marketing is all about and it is really key for nonprofits because we want to be out there. People have resources, and they’ve got time, they want to volunteer, they want to donate. They want to support, they want to partner, and they might want to seek your services. You’ve got to be able to be found out there and that’s so important to be in that space so that’s some of the things that we’re looking at. One of the other things that Trenise can shed some light on is our email marketing. So, we’ve been doing a lot of that in the last couple of years. If anybody has donated to Goodwill in the past four years and if you haven’t why not? Get on it right now! Clean out your clutter and come to Goodwill.
Adam: I’m all about cleaning out clutter. It’s going to Goodwill!
Adam: It’s my favorite thing.
Elaine: Bring a couple of jeans that you’re not using bring, us some old books or whatever it is!
Elaine: Come to one of our stores in which you’re going to find is you’re going to get a ticket. It’s called the donation ticket, and it’s going to have a unique identifying number on it. One of the things that our IT team did about four years ago, was they built us a platform where everybody gets a unique IT number you can log that in and save all your donation information online. So, yes, it’s a little bit of digital marketing but what we’re able to do on the back end is that built our e-mail marketing list. Before we had that, we didn’t have any.
Adam: Nice! So how many are on your list now roughly, give me an estimate?
Trenise: So, we have about three hundred thousand people on our list right now.
Adam: Oh, is that all?
Trenise: It’s an extensive list, and that information that we get out of it is pretty rich for what it allows us to do when we want to do email marketing. So, everyone who’s in there is a Goodwill donor, and they’ve taken that step to register their donations. So, they’re kind of already a little bit invested into the system. We also have a little survey in there were we asked them some questions, and one of the questions is: are you a shopper with Goodwill? So, a lot of it’s not necessarily the same thing that our donators are shoppers more often than not; they are showing up on those lists. So, we also get their zip code and the last place that they donated. So, this is all information that we’re able to feed into our system. So, one of the great things is we’re about to open our sixty-first store I think, down in Tyrone
Trenise: Yeah, so we always have things opening and things going on. What this has allowed us to do now is to drill down to the zip code level so if we’re opening a new store here and when we open our store here in Decatur and it zip code 3 0 0 3 3, I can go into our system and say give me everyone within 5 miles of 3 0 0 3 3.
Adam: And you can promote to those people, yes!
Trenise: And say, “hey, we’re opening a new store.” The other thing is, if we’re looking at a place where donations are down, or sales are down, we can go into that neighborhood and say, “hey, have you stopped by, it’s been a little while so maybe you’ve donated? Maybe you want to consider going over to this location this week.
Trenise: So, it lets us have that flexibility to be able to do that. We’re also able to within that system do the AB testing for messaging. So, subject lines that kind of stuff we can test all of those things. And then also gives us great analytics back on the number of people that open your emails, where they’re looking, where they’re clicking. So, you’re able to see OK, well people like clicking in the top third or bottom third, or they respond to a button or a picture, or they’re willing to look at this. So, it lets us really hone our messaging and how we communicate with people via e-mail.
Adam: So, let’s dive just a little bit deeper into some things you said there. You mentioned AB testing, some our listeners may not be familiar with AB testing.
Adam: Give like a very brief definition and maybe an example of what you test.
Elaine: Give the elementary school definition.
Trenise: So, one of the best examples I can give, and it’s probably the way to do it, is we participate in Georgia Gibbs day.
Trenise: Every year, so we send out an email encouraging people to give. So, with AB testing we will create two, with our system it lets you create two subject lines.
Trenise: So, it sends out the subject lines both emails will go at the same time to 20 percent of our mailing list. Half of that 20 percent will get message A; half will get message B. Based on how it performs within that four hours of that testing period, the one that gets the most action is the one that goes out to the other 80 percent of our email list.
Adam: I love that.
Trenise: So, in that way, we know that we’re getting the best performing message going out to the lion’s share of your list, but you’re testing against your own list.
Trenise: So, it’s a really nice way to get that instant feedback, but it’s automatic. So, once you create it, it is done. (10:00)
Adam: And you’re testing to see which one gets the higher open rate?
Adam: Okay. Fantastic!
Elaine: And then an extension off of that. So, our donation tracking system which is what you would log your donations in, we were able to do the email marketing but what we’ve also been able to do is a bunch of research on the back end of that. So Trenise mentioned that we have everybody’s email address and their zip code which is highly important but we also optionally ask people, “give us a little bit about your income, tell us your street address.” A lot of people gave us that information.
Adam: Oh Yeah?
Elaine: What we’ve been able to do is, through PRISM data, so there’s widely available demographic data that is out there a lot of marketing companies use it and so, what we’ve done is look alike modeling and said, “hey, so here are who our donors say they are. This is the demographic information they gave us. Here’s what PRISM said these people are let’s match up a layer on top of each other and see where these people live and where we have a higher propensity of donors that will donate to Goodwill. So, we’ve done a little bit of that across our territory to see and looked at those areas where we over indexed and say, “hey, there’s a lot of people that live in this neighborhood that look just like our donors and that maybe are our donors.” And so, when we’re doing our advertising buys are when we’re very strategic and smart about our messaging we know who those people are, where they live, and we know what kind of cars they drive by the way because PRISM tells us, we know what they love to watch on TV because PRISM tells us. We know what kind of shopping habits they have, the average amount of kids and so, we can tailor our messaging, our artwork, things that we’re doing directly to that population. And we also know where we’re not indexing at all. We’re not really picking up, and so, we can be really smart and strategic about trying to measure the lift in those areas about whether we can acquire new donors in those areas. So, it is a little bit of digital marketing but also research, kind of combined with a little bit of strategic marketing on top of that and the communication. So, it’s all in one.
Adam: That’s great! So, you get a lot more bang for your buck that way too.
Elaine: We do yeah and that’s really key, especially just thinking about it smartly. I would say to for non-profits and this really for any business. Resources are not going to be infinite unless they are at a huge corporation. Even then, you’ve got to be mindful. But when you have so little resources, and you may have fewer people on your team you’ve got to think smart about it.
Elaine: I want to get the message to the people, but it’s got to be a message that’s going to resonate with them. AB testing or looking at look-alike modeling. You want to get to where those people are because obviously, your message is important. You’ve got a great mission. Give it to the right people and how they want to hear it you know. So…
Adam: It’s fantastic. So, on the analytics and statistics side, so what other stuff are you measuring from a website perspective? I’m curious. The things you look about, care about the most.
Trenise: Sure. For our website, we always want to make sure that we’re maintaining at the very least where we have been. So, what I look at every month are the number of our visitors, the page visits. So, how many pages are people going into, how deep are they going into our website, how much time are they spending on our website.
Trenise: And I like to look at that. So, compare this month to last month but I also will look at July 2017 versus July 2016, and that’s kind of what Elaine was talking about when we were saying that we’re seeing these drop-offs on our website and they’re not huge. So, they wouldn’t pop if you were only looking month to month because it’s like, “oh well compared to last month we’re fine.” But if you go back last year, we’re down 1 percent, 2 percent but when we’re looking at our numbers, those are the big numbers. So, we also look at, and we have been tracking for at least the last couple of years, the number of people who are coming to our website via mobile and tablet which Google Analytics will tell you both of those things are separate categories. So, we all know that what you see on your phone can be different than what you get on your tablet depending on the website. It may make your tablet show up in the mobile view or not, or you make it to your desktop view, but it’s good to look at those types of things and say well, “how are people coming to us.” The other thing that we like to take a look at is to look at where are people going when they get to the site. So, we have like a location finder on there. That’s our top click.
Trenise: People want to know how to get to a store, how to get to a donation Centre or how to get to a career center.
Trenise: So, making sure that we understand once people come in, what are they looking at? Where are they going? Do we need to make sure if we make any tweaks to the website that needs to be fixed, is that location finder…? Now we know, well if we have any dollars (15:00 ) to put behind anything to fix on that side that needs a tweak, this is where the lion’s share of our folks are going.
Trenise: We also like to look at certain times of the year what keywords are popping in our search function. So, it’s always interesting to be able to say, “look, all of a sudden furniture is popping.”
Adam: What time of year do people search for furniture?What time of year? Christmas?
Trenise: Not necessarily and it doesn’t tie to anything!
Elaine: It’s like in the middle of the year.
Adam: OK, that’s great!
Trenise: Ok, what are we doing with furniture? Like why all of a sudden you look at our top 10 searches, for search terms and they rarely change.
Trenise: And all of a sudden something will pop up into the top 10, and I’m like “what is going on?” Every once in while is forklifts because all of a sudden people are looking into our forklift training program. That makes sense. So, was there advertising in market that we were talking about forklifts. That’s working because people are driving to the site.
Trenise: And they’re searching for forklifts I don’t know what, I don’t know. I still to this day, I don’t know why furniture popped.
Adam: Somebody just really needed some furniture.
Trenise: Thousands of people wanted furniture at the same time. Those are the types of things that we’re looking at. So, it gives you information both ways it gives you information so that we can go out and do what we need to do. It’s kind of like a little canary in the cave where it tells you what you’re doing out here. How is it affecting stuff because you can start to see like where people are going and what are they doing?
Adam: And you see how effective your stuff is.
Adam: Right. And I know you’re doing heatmap testing on your website. I’d love for you to describe that for our listeners a bit and what you’ve learned from that and are you doing the AB testing on your website I’m curious about that?
Trenise: On the website…
Elaine: So, we haven’t done any AB testing on the website as of yet, but the heatmap testing is really kind of what we alluded to earlier about getting those folks who are in our donation tracker, and those are again, those people double as our e-mail marketing list.
Elaine: But they’re in our database, and we’ve got information that they’ve given us, and we got their name, their address and where they live and their zip code and we match that up with our PRISM data so we know where those folks live. And we have tried we actually took two different locations. So, one on a map where it looked like those people over indexed because they looked very similar to the people who donate to us. So, based on PRISM data we said, “hey, this person lives in this area and drives this type car, has this sort of income and they matched up to what PRISM told us those folks should look like. And so, we did a campaign. Actually, it wasn’t digital. This was actually snail mail marketing!
Adam: Marketing is marketing. I’m all for it!
Elaine: I Know!
Adam: Marketing is great.
Elaine: We did a snail mail campaign.
Elaine: We did mailers, and we did postcards, and so we sent it to one area that had over indexed and then one that really needed the help, and we really didn’t have any match up on the heatmap test.
Elaine: And so, we looked at where the difference was, and we did different artwork on both of them just to see kind who would respond to what and what we saw was we actually had greater response in the areas where they already over-indexed. The lift was greater than sort of the delta between what we were able to move in areas where those folks didn’t donate to us anyway. So, it’s very interesting.
Adam: To see more effectiveness from people that you already engage with.
Adam: Which is great!
Elaine: And one of the things that we tried to do then is our strategy. It kind of validated our strategy for our advertising anyway because it has been to sort of fish where the fish are.
Elaine: And so, we’re on. You’ll see us, and we’ll be in market on times where we know heavy donations are going to come. So, we’re just adding to the lift versus trying to lift from the bottom, and we’re lifting incrementally. And so, that has been our strategy, and it seemed to work and we’re continuing to do that we actually are by because our fiscal year starts over in July and so we’re going into our new fiscal year and that will be the strategy that we use going forward is really to continue to be on at those times when you know donations are high. Look if it’s Spring cleaning we know people are out there cleaning. We know that year end is a huge time for us as our busiest time of the year by far. So, we’re always making sure that at the end of the tax year that we’re on and we’re everywhere and people can see us and they know where we are going to be, what our store hours are because Trenise is going to dovetail that that ad buy with our e-mail marketing and of course our social media is going to ducktail into that. And then even our media relations all of that’s going to combine together, and we do our biggest media outreach through PR at the same time. So again, we’re layering on times where we know people are active because that’s when we get the biggest bang for our buck.
Adam: I love that because a lot of times are conventional wisdom is always it’s a slow time. So, let’s put our money there.
Adam: Don’t do that. Let it work for you! (20:00)
Adam: I really like that a lot.
Elaine: Yeah, and then there’s times where we do tests when there are slow times just to see what we can put… but the biggest part of our resources and time and effort is really fishing where the fish are and being on when we know that we can get those biggest deltas and we measure it year over year, and we see where we are on those peaks in this chart and we know the specific months where we’re heavy on one thing. We’re continuing to see those spikes, and it’s great, because we’re continuing to see movement even on areas where we know we peaked.
Adam: The other thing I’m hearing both you say that I love, is test, test, test, test!
Adam: I think that’s something that a lot of nonprofits feel guilty about like maybe they don’t have a big email list, or they don’t have a big budget, but I think the reality is, anyone doing any degree of marketing in any capacity can test anything.
Elaine: That’s right.
Adam: And you test to see what works and then you iterate and iterate. You don’t just put something together and throw it at the wall and just wait. Just test, test, test and get a better, better, and better, right?
Trenise: And even recognize when things kind of do well that to Elaine’s point, about anything could be better. So, it’s like “well, this worked. So, how can we turn it up a notch and make it that much better?” So, whether it’s with our e-mail stuff, we look at our social and see what are people responding to in our social, is this or is it that? Is it photographs? Is it video? Is it…
Elaine: Icons versus photos? Which actually is a true story, on one of our advertising on Facebook even. So, we started doing carousels. Carousel ads that you can sort of swipe across to the left, and you can see another picture. And so, we had two different versions. We had one icon, and one with pictures of people that we had put to work. And we thought boy, “we’re going to see which one performs and trust that they will perform well.” Well actually, the icons performed better in the Carousel. The photos actually came better when you’re doing time line. So, we use both!
Elaine: Because why not? But we tested both. We did two totally different artworks. Messaging was pretty similar, but again, some people were drawn to those icons when they were scrolling. I guess because they wanted, I don’t know what it is about those icons! But when it’s in your timeline they want to see a person, and they want those eyes to connect with them. So, it’s so interesting so testing, that’s just one of the ways that we do it.
Trenise: You talk about Google Analytics is one of those tools that are out there free for people to use. The other thing is, the analytics and insights that come from Facebook have gotten so much more powerful since businesses first started using personal accounts because there were no business accounts. So, you just created a person that was like…Good, last name, Will. But now you have these accounts, and you get these powerful insights so every month you can go in there and say like, “oh, will this particular post performed really well. What was this?” “Oh, it was a photograph post with a caption versus just a text post versus a video post.” We were talking about this the other day. I personally hate video posts in my Facebook feed. I don’t like having to stop and watch a video to find out what’s going on unless it’s captioned and I don’t have to actually listen to it. I can just read it.
Trenise: That’s just my personal preference, but we do know that there is a need and people are desiring video content to feed all of these machines, whether it’s Instagram videos now or Snapchat, Twitter with the videos, Facebook or all those different platforms. Nobody really talks about Google Plus.
Adam: It’s got to be going away! The only people on there are marketers.
Trenise: But Google, just for your information, for folks out there that are listening… You have to still post on your Google Plus account because it does feed into your Google SEO.
Adam: It does, yes. It is ridiculous.
Trenise: It is ridiculous. It forces you to do it but just post, nobody’s ever going to look at it.
Adam: No one is ever going to notice.
Trenise: But yes, so being able to use that kind of stuff whether it’s the Twitter analytics, seeing how people are interacting with those kinds of things. And then once you see what’s working, again go with it and then turn up the heat on it.
Adam: We could dive really deep into this!
Trenise: We’ll stay surface level.
Adam: So, social media, there are a lot of different places you can spend your time and a lot of nonprofits have limited capacity in terms of budget or time. So, like how do you recommend a nonprofit sort of begin to increase and connect with people on social media? Is there one that you say, “I’ll start here and then move into this and this,” or is it just a case by case? Or what are your thoughts?
Trenise: I think it depends on who you are.
Elaine: Yeah, it really does.
Trenise: I think if we looked at our demographics for Goodwill and kind of going back to that data, Facebook made really good sense (25:00 )for us to start.
Trenise: So, we start there and kind of branch out. We were very heavy into Facebook. We do have a Twitter handle that we use and we use it quite robustly because of what we do and a lot of the stuff that are in our stores, specifically for our shoppers, when they’re looking for items. Instagram has proven to be a really interesting platform for us because of that photographic content to say, “cool, find!” Or “look at how this got re-purposed” and we have a lot of people that are out there in that DIY, thrifting, re-purposing space that has content that they like to share that we can repost. So, Instagram makes sense for us. Similarly, with Pinterest because again, it’s that Photocentric face for stuff. We’ve run into other organizations. Elaine and I also co-host a radio show, called The Good Work Show. Shameless plug where we interview nonprofits here in the area and we interview.
Elaine: Like Forty-Eight in Forty-Eight.
Trenise: So, we had some groups on recently and they’ve started out. They are a younger demographic. And they started out in Instagram. They’re super happy on Instagram and less so on Facebook. So, I would say go where your audience is. If you know that you have an organization that’s really geared towards young adults or teens or whatever, they are more likely on Instagram and Snapchat than they are really deep into Facebook. And then they’re on Twitter, definitely not Pinterest!
Trenise: So, I think it would be more about for an organization to stop and look and say, “well, who is our audience? What’s the demographic of the people that we’re talking about? Where does that demographic live in the social space” and go there?
Adam: And research it, right? Ask questions!
Adam: And ask, ask, ask, ask, ask them!
Elaine: And then you can! And then if all else fails, grab your profile on all of them because we do. Before we were even on Instagram, we just grabbed it anyway because people said we should be on Instagram. And we were like, “no, we’re not ready.” And we were at that time, but we grabbed the profile anyway. Just grab it, see what’s out there and then you can just listen and that’s one of the things that when we started doing social media, and hopefully all of the nonprofits are somewhere in the space, but just say there’s someone listening and they’re like, “oh, we haven’t bought into social media yet”. We’ll come on board, first of all! But be strategic about it because when we started doing this about seven years ago, we had a leadership team here who wasn’t on social media. They didn’t understand it.
Elaine: And so, we had to do a little bit of education, enough to get them to be comfortable with us going there because the reticence was, “hey, we’re going to be out there. Now everybody’s going to be able to talk bad about us”. Well, they’re doing it anyway! So, we should be there to be able to respond.
Adam: That’s right.
Elaine: So, be strategic about how you do it and then also continue just to watch and measure. But see where your audience is because not every platform is good for every organization and some are going to be better for others. We just happen to have a lot of visual content. So, it makes sense to be on Instagram, but we know a lot of our audience loves Facebook. We’ve got a lot of bloggers who are connected to us that they love to post and write and talk about their experiences. So, Facebook makes sense for them.
Adam: That’s great. Well, this has been amazing! Thank you both so much for your time and for letting me into your world for a few minutes, and maybe we get to do this again sometime?
Elaine: Absolutely! We’d love to, and if anybody’s got any questions for us feel free to shoot us an email at [email protected] We’re happy to help one of the things that Trenise mentioned; we have our radio show which is totally another thing that we do but.
Adam: Please check it out.
Elaine: I know, you should check it out. 106.7, Saturdays at noon but we’re also because of that, our goal really, is on that show, is to help other non-profits and if there’s something that you heard today that you’re like, “boy, I wonder how Goodwill did it?” We’re not going to hold it from you. I think the gold in this podcast and our radio show and things in the nonprofit space is that, there’s a space for everybody here.
Adam: There is!
Elaine: And if we can share making one nonprofit stronger is only going to be strong for the nonprofit community and eventually stronger for our community as a whole.
Adam: That’s great.
Elaine: So, we’re willing to share. So, anybody got any questions or feedback for us.
Trenise: Or if you want to be on the radio show.
Elaine: Or if you want to be on the radio show, yes! By all means!
Adam: That’s [email protected]
Elaine: That’s right!
Adam: And lastly, go donate five items this week to Goodwill! Five items minimum.
Elaine: That’s right.
Adam: That’s the deal. All right, thanks so much ladies!
Trenise: Thank you.
Adam: You’ve been great!
Take aways from this episode:
First, make sure you test and iterate and test and iterate. One of the things that I loved in this conversation with Elaine and Trenise is that they are always learning and always improving what they’re doing with their marketing whether it’s email marketing or it’s the website, or it’s social media. They are constantly learning from what they are doing and they are constantly making it better and better and better.
The best thing we can do in our Nonprofit digital marketing is to continue to learn and iterate. Make sure you test your emails, make sure you test your website content buttons and your icons and your images and your calls to action. Make sure you test how social media is going. Make sure you learn from that and use it to help you grow your impact.
I’m your host, Adam Walker. You can find me at adamjwalker.com where I blog about leadership and technology and lots of other fun stuff including being a dad to five kids. You can also find out more about this Podcast at goodpeoplegoodmarketing.com and there you will find additional resources and a blog dedicated to nonprofit marketing and other fun items. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next week!